Unhappy with xdg-user-dirs

[Thomas U. Grüttmüller]

Hello,

I am a Debian user, and found today that a program called
“xdg-user-dirs” had created, without my approval, the following empty
folders in my home directory:

* “Vorlagen”,
* “Öffentlich”,
* “Musik”,
* “Bilder”, and
* “Videos”.

These folders, and the following *already existing* folders

* “Desktop”,
* “Downloads”, and
* “Dokumente”

were also listed under “~/.config/user-dirs.dirs”. I don’t know when
this has happened, maybe weeks or months ago, but today I’ve noticed it.

I am very unhappy with this situation, because I did not actively chose
to install “xdg-user-dirs”. I don’t know why it was installed at all, as
none of the packages I use depend on it. Of course, I’ve deinstalled the
program and removed the created foldes and files, but there remains a
bitter feeling that I cannot trust my computer anymore, if such things
happen. As a user, I expect my computer to do what I tell him, and not
to surprise me with things I never expected.

I think it would be good style if “xdg-user-dirs” could identify itself
to the user and ask him for approval, e.g. with a dialog box like
“xdg-user-dirs / The following folders will be crated: … [OK] [Cancel]”.
I noticed the changes only by accident, maybe weeks after
they were done, and I had to google to find out what program caused it.

The second thing I’m unhappy about is that there seems to be no
documentation at all about “xdg-user-dirs”. What are these folders
intended for? Do I need a folder “Öffentlich” because future programs
will expect it? If so, what will these programs expect there? And what
will they store there? What is the idea behind the folder “Musik”? I use
“Downloads/Musik” for downloaded music and “Dokumente/Musik” for my own
works.

The thing that makes me *very angry* is that “xdg-user-dirs” repurposes
preexisting folders without notifying me. “Dokumente” is the folder
where I store all the files I am personally involved with. For me, this
folder has the highest importance, and no one has the right to touch
this folder except me! Especially I don’t want programs to expect it to
be the trash hole for arbitrary “documents” of all kind. If future
programs need a “Dokumente” folder in order to work, that’s fine. But
then, please let me rename my old “Dokumente” folder first.

Kind regards,
Thomas

[Mattias Andrée]

I would purpose xdg-user-dirs-update be removed.
Directories should not be automatically created,
especially not over and over again if you remove them;
it should not require research to remove a directory.

Additionally I propose xdg-user-dir should fail if the
a directory is not listed, rather than defaulting to
the home directory. Just because I don't want directories
created for me, it does not been that I want everything
in my home directory.

Finally I propose filename_encoding be removed from
user-dirs.conf. UTF-8 should always be used. Why would
you not use UTF-8? Using any other encoding may cause
inconsistency since most programs are hardcoded to only
use UTF-8. It's time to move on from legacy codings.


On Mon, 3 Aug 2015 01:22:55 +0200

Post by Thomas U. Grüttmüller
Hello,
I am a Debian user, and found today that a program called
“xdg-user-dirs” had created, without my approval, the
* “Vorlagen”,
* “Öffentlich”,
* “Musik”,
* “Bilder”, and
* “Videos”.
These folders, and the following *already existing*
folders
* “Desktop”,
* “Downloads”, and
* “Dokumente”
were also listed under “~/.config/user-dirs.dirs”. I
don’t know when this has happened, maybe weeks or months
ago, but today I’ve noticed it.
I am very unhappy with this situation, because I did not
actively chose to install “xdg-user-dirs”. I don’t know
why it was installed at all, as none of the packages I
use depend on it. Of course, I’ve deinstalled the program
and removed the created foldes and files, but there
remains a bitter feeling that I cannot trust my computer
anymore, if such things happen. As a user, I expect my
computer to do what I tell him, and not to surprise me
with things I never expected.
I think it would be good style if “xdg-user-dirs” could
identify itself to the user and ask him for approval,
e.g. with a dialog box like “xdg-user-dirs / The
following folders will be crated: 
 [OK] [Cancel]”. I
noticed the changes only by accident, maybe weeks after
they were done, and I had to google to find out what
program caused it.
The second thing I’m unhappy about is that there seems to
be no documentation at all about “xdg-user-dirs”. What
are these folders intended for? Do I need a folder
“Öffentlich” because future programs will expect it? If
so, what will these programs expect there? And what will
they store there? What is the idea behind the folder
“Musik”? I use “Downloads/Musik” for downloaded music and
“Dokumente/Musik” for my own works.
The thing that makes me *very angry* is that
“xdg-user-dirs” repurposes preexisting folders without
notifying me. “Dokumente” is the folder where I store all
the files I am personally involved with. For me, this
folder has the highest importance, and no one has the
right to touch this folder except me! Especially I don’t
want programs to expect it to be the trash hole for
arbitrary “documents” of all kind. If future programs
need a “Dokumente” folder in order to work, that’s fine.
But then, please let me rename my old “Dokumente” folder
first.
Kind regards,
Thomas
_______________________________________________
xdg mailing list
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xdg

[Bart van Strien]

Post by Thomas U. Grüttmüller
I am a Debian user, and found today that a program called
“xdg-user-dirs” had created, without my approval, the following empty
I am very unhappy with this situation, because I did not actively chose
to install “xdg-user-dirs”. I don’t know why it was installed at all, as
none of the packages I use depend on it.

Hello Thomas,

It seems to me your primary issue is that xdg-user-dirs was installed by
default and/or without your consent. Rather than blame the software for
existing, it may make much more sense to talk to your distribution
maintainers (debian in this case), and ask them to remove the package
from a default install, or from the repositories entirely.

Regards,
Bart van Strien

[Vladimir Kudrya]

Hi!
On the other hand, the issue is valid. There could be a question pop-up
that asks if user wants to create directories. Or at least an info
pop-up that informs that certain dirs were created. These dirs are
useful only if graphical session is installed anyway.
There is also an issue with localization (make links instead of renaming
dirs) which hangs in bug tracker for a long time.

Post by Bart van Strien

Post by Thomas U. Grüttmüller
I am a Debian user, and found today that a program called
“xdg-user-dirs” had created, without my approval, the following empty
I am very unhappy with this situation, because I did not actively chose
to install “xdg-user-dirs”. I don’t know why it was installed at all, as
none of the packages I use depend on it.

Hello Thomas,
It seems to me your primary issue is that xdg-user-dirs was installed
by default and/or without your consent. Rather than blame the software
for existing, it may make much more sense to talk to your distribution
maintainers (debian in this case), and ask them to remove the package
from a default install, or from the repositories entirely.
Regards,
Bart van Strien
_______________________________________________
xdg mailing list
http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/xdg

[Alexandre Franke]

These dirs are useful only if graphical session is installed anyway.

That's simply not true. A command line music player could be
programmed to use ~/Music for its music library for instance.

[Vladimir Kudrya]

I doubt that users of cli music player would need an automatic helper to
create a dir for them.

Post by Alexandre Franke

These dirs are useful only if graphical session is installed anyway.

That's simply not true. A command line music player could be
programmed to use ~/Music for its music library for instance.

[Frederic Crozat]

Post by Alexandre Franke

These dirs are useful only if graphical session is installed anyway.

That's simply not true. A command line music player could be
programmed to use ~/Music for its music library for instance.

No, it should be better for the application in question to parse
~/.config/user-dirs.dirs (or source it from shell) and use
XDG_MUSIC_DIR key (or environment variable).

[Alexandre Franke]

Post by Frederic Crozat

Post by Alexandre Franke
That's simply not true. A command line music player could be
programmed to use ~/Music for its music library for instance.

No, it should be better for the application in question to parse
~/.config/user-dirs.dirs (or source it from shell) and use
XDG_MUSIC_DIR key (or environment variable).

I was taking a shortcut but that's what I meant.

[Frederic Crozat]

Hi!
On the other hand, the issue is valid. There could be a question pop-up that
asks if user wants to create directories. Or at least an info pop-up that
informs that certain dirs were created. These dirs are useful only if
graphical session is installed anyway.

There is already a popup when user is changing locale to ask if
directory should be renamed or not, following the locale.

[Thomas U. Grüttmüller]

Post by Bart van Strien
It seems to me your primary issue is that xdg-user-dirs was
installed by default and/or without your consent.
Rather than blame the software for existing, […]

Hello Bart,

I’m sorry but you get me entirely wrong. Please let me clarify:

1. I do value the work of <freedesktop.org> very much. If the existance
of certain directories is necessary for desktop applications to work
properly, any desktop environment should follow that standard. So, I
don’t blame the software for existing. On the contrary, it should be
there by default then.

2. My primary issue is that the software should not do unexpected
things. I didn’t expect that a program would create these folders, and I
didn’t expect that it would repurpose existing folders. Especially I
didn’t want it to repurpose my existing folders. So what is the problem
with informing the user of the changes, and giving him a chance to opt
out? This is a very disrespectful behaviour!

3. My second issue is that I don’t understand the purpose of this
standard. <freedesktop.org> is about setting standards, how desktop
environments should work and interact, right? So where is the document
that explains what these folders are good for? As a user, I want to know
which kind of data I can expect there. As an application developer, one
needs to know how the application should deal with these folders correctly.

Regards,
Thomas

[Pat Suwalski]

Post by Thomas U. Grüttmüller
1. I do value the work of <freedesktop.org> very much. If the existance
of certain directories is necessary for desktop applications to work
properly, any desktop environment should follow that standard. So, I
don’t blame the software for existing. On the contrary, it should be
there by default then.

On a new install, they are there by default.

Post by Thomas U. Grüttmüller
2. My primary issue is that the software should not do unexpected
things. I didn’t expect that a program would create these folders, and I
didn’t expect that it would repurpose existing folders. Especially I
didn’t want it to repurpose my existing folders. So what is the problem
with informing the user of the changes, and giving him a chance to opt
out? This is a very disrespectful behaviour!

It's not repurposing any folders. These folders may get used as defaults
for programs that haven't had any other settings specified, but your
existing programs would continue doing what you expect.

Post by Thomas U. Grüttmüller
3. My second issue is that I don’t understand the purpose of this
standard. <freedesktop.org> is about setting standards, how desktop
environments should work and interact, right? So where is the document
that explains what these folders are good for? As a user, I want to know
which kind of data I can expect there. As an application developer, one
needs to know how the application should deal with these folders correctly.

I can't find a spec per-se, but it all started here:

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xdg/2007-February/007727.html

--Pat

[Emmanuele Bassi]

Hi;

Post by Thomas U. Grüttmüller
2. My primary issue is that the software should not do unexpected
things. I didn’t expect that a program would create these folders, and I
didn’t expect that it would repurpose existing folders. Especially I
didn’t want it to repurpose my existing folders. So what is the problem
with informing the user of the changes, and giving him a chance to opt
out? This is a very disrespectful behaviour!

There is no change to opt out from: all the XDG user directories do is
provide convenient defaults for applications. If the directories
already exist, they are left alone; if they do not exist, some
application will try to create them, while others may fall back to
other locations, though I'm pretty sure application developers stopped
falling back because it's been seven years and at some point fallback
code paths that are not getting tested are just sources of bugs.

XDG user directories are just configuration settings. They come with
the system, and users can change them if they so choose. What to do
with those settings is entirely up to the applications using them.

It's not repurposing any folders. These folders may get used as defaults for
programs that haven't had any other settings specified, but your existing
programs would continue doing what you expect.

If you don't want to use the default values, because you already set
up your $HOME in a certain way, you can also change the location of
each directory using ~/.config/user-dirs.dirs. This way, you can keep
using your $HOME layout.

Ciao,
Emmanuele.